How Clinton won Nevada (demographics analysis) and what it means moving forward

Disclosure: I am a Hillary supporter

The debate in SC has been discussed right below this entry quite a bit, so I would like to focus instead on the battle for certain constituencies and demographics, as they obviously make up the winning combination for whoever comes out the winner of the Democratic nomination process.

Let me first say that this is probably the most interesting and exciting Democratic campaign I have personally witnessed.  We have seen record turnouts for these primaries/caucuses, which bodes well for our party and our fortunes moving forward towards November and beyond.  I am confident that whoever wins will be a very strong candidate for us (I obviously believe that will be Hillary) and whoever loses will bring the constituency strengths with him/her and add it to the absolutely impressive, downright baffling, total with full, unconditional support.

At this point Hillary Clinton's core constituency is coming out in large numbers to help her win primaries/caucuses.  Obama must cut into Hillary's share of these major constituencies by either convincing many of them to move to him, or by suppressing the turnout amongst those groups.   Let's dissect what has been happening since NH (leaving MI out of it as not very instrumental to this analysis):

The Nevada exit poll was off by a bit (they have a margin of error, too,) but nonetheless serve to provide us with some interesting numbers to mull over, which the campaigns will no doubt also use to see where they have particularly strong weaknesses and strengths, and as a basis to hone their message moving forward.

Here the exit poll data:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primari es/results/epolls/index.html#NVDEM

Let's analyze the important comparative numbers one by one,  as they pertain to the core constituency groups, and see what they mean for the process moving forward.  It is also important to see movement within Demographics, so here are the New Hampshire exit poll numbers to make that comparison:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primari es/results/epolls/index.html#NHDEM

1. Registered Democrat vs. Independent/registered Republican

Democrats  51% Clinton, 39% Obama, 8% Edwards
Independents 31% Clinton, 41% Obama, 18% Edwards
Republican 0% Clinton, 0% Obama, 0% Edwards

Comparative, NH:

Democrats  45% Clinton, 34% Obama, 16% Edwards
Independents 33% Clinton, 47% Obama, 11% Edwards
Republican 0% Clinton, 0% Obama, 0% Edwards

Analysis:  Hillary has a strong advantage with registered Democrats over the rest of the field.  The party ID gap between Hillary and Obama is 12% in Hillary's favor, with Hillary commanding a majority of Democrats.  In NH Hillary had an 11% advantage with registered Democrats.  Given that a good number of primaries moving forward don't allow Independents to participate, Hillary's strong advantage with registered Democrats probably means that Obama will be somewhat competetive in open primaries, but will lose badly (by double-digits) in closed primaries.  That is unless he can make inroads into the Democratic party ID demographic.

We have also seen that, once again, Obama won over more Independents than Hillary.  However, that advantage has narrowed a bit, from 14% in New Hampshire to 10% in Nevada's caucus.  Still, Obama's strength with Independents suggests that he will be somewhat competetive in open primaries.  

2. Female/male voters

Hillary Clinton had a decisive advantage with female voters once again.  They came out in record numbers and gave Hillary a strong advantage.   In Nevada the female vote made up a whopping 59% of the total, males 41%.  In New Hampshire we had a similar dynamic, with female voting making up 57% of the total and male voting 43% of the total.  What many Hillary Clinton supporters have claimed since the beginning of her candidacy is coming true:  Women are coming out in record numbers to cast their votes for Hillary.  Many of these women have never voted in their lives, but are now getting involved in large numbers, to make a difference in this process.   That bodes well for the prospects of Democrats moving forward, for our fortunes in November, and also for progressives down-ticket, as women tend to vote more progressive than men.

The numeric result:

Female share of the vote:

NV: Clinton 51%, Obama 38%, Edwards 8%

NH: Clinton 46%, Obama 34%, Edwards 15%

Male share of the vote:

NV: Clinton 43%, Obama 45%, Edwards 9%

NH: Clinton 29%, Obama 40%, Edwards 19%

Analysis: Hillary Clinton holds a commanding lead with the female vote, which also comes out to these primaries/caucuses in larger numbers than males. Hillary's advantage over Obama with the female vote is 13%, whereas in NH it was 12%.   An interesting movement in the male vote:  While Obama held an 11% advantage in the male vote in NH, that lead was down to only 2% in Nevada, suggesting Hillary Clinton has made some inroads in erasing the male vote deficit she had to Obama.   I think it is safe to assume that Hillary will continue to command a strong advantage with the women vote moving forward.  How the male vote goes from here on out is anyone's guess, but the fact that Hillary was able to erase Obama's advantage in the male vote to a virtual tie must be a headache to the Obama campaign.

3. Vote by race

There appears to be an interesting dynamic taking place here along racial lines, which will be very pivotal moving forward. We will see in Florida and other racially diverse states whether these important dynamics hold:

Nevada only:

52% of Whites voted for Clinton, 34% voted for Obama

83% of African-Americans voted for Obama, 14% voted for Clinton

64% of the Latino community voted for Clinton, 26% voted for Obama

Analysis:  The African-American vote is going strongly for Obama, but that is made up by Clinton's strong share of the Hispanic vote.  In some of the larger states coming up the Hispanic vote is more important than any other minority vote.  Whites going strongly for Clinton (to the tune of almost a 20% gap) may be a counter-reaction to all the race stuff that was going back and forth, although I hope that is not very distinct and will settle down some.  If it does, then Hillary's share of the AA vote will probably grow again while Obama's share of the White vote will do the same, probably proportionally to race issues finding their way to the backburner once again.   I think the strong Hispanic vote for Clinton is somewhat of the tie-breaker here, support that has been very strong from the very beginning and will, unless Obama can make serious inroads into it, reap major benefits in some of the largest states for her.

4. Vote by age

Obama wins the youth vote, Clinton wins the older-age vote.  Nothing new here, but let's look at movement:

NV:

Age:  18-29 yrs. Obama 59% Clinton 33%
      30-44 yrs. Obama 46% Clinton 38%
      45-59 yrs. Clinton 46% Obama 42%
      60 and older Clinton 60% Obama 31%

Obama won the age groups below 44, Clinton won the age groups above it.  The kicker here is the turnout.  Voters age 45 and older made up a whopping 68% of the Nevada caucus electorate, 44 and under made up only 32%.  You WANT to win in the strongest age group, and given that 60 and older was the strongest representative here, showing up to the tune of 36% of the overall voting public, Clinton's strong advantage in that age group (winning by almost 30%) was a huge difference maker.

NH showed a similar dynamic, with Clinton winning in the age groups above 40 years of age, which comprised 67% of the overall voting public.  

Generally speaking, while young voters are very important and they are showing up in very large numbers, it is still true that the heavier weight of the balance is with voters above 40, and the candidate who has decisive advantages in the age groups above 40 has a chance to win primaries/caucuses more often than not.  

There are other interesting comparisons to be drawn, all of them telling in their own rights.  Quite important, with the economy becoming perhaps THE issue of the campaign now, voters who stated that the economy was their main concern, Hillary won Nevada by 9%, the exact same "confidence" gap those voters showed pro-Hillary in New Hampshire.  Also quite important, Hillary wins the "lunchpail Democrats," voters who make less than $50,000 per year, by a healthy margin. In NV it was by 12%, in NH she won in that category by 15%.

Obviously, moving forward, Hillary needs to continue to keep her strong and dedicated support from the core constituencies she currently has:  Registered Democrats, Women, Hispanics, older voters, and "regular, working people" who are economically the most vulnerable.  If she can, she can't be beat.  Obama needs to expand on his constituencies beyond Independents, African-Americans and certain economic income groups.  He is a formidable opponent, as his strong showing in both Nevada and New Hampshire showed.  However, Hispanics will take center stage in major contests in huge states very soon, a lot of the contests moving forwards will be closed up to Independents voting, and the youth/college vote seems too unreliable a factor to count on it to deliver across the board.  Desmoulins explained in his Nevada series that college voters are no factor in Nevada, as the major colleges have a very transient nature with most students registered elsewhere, which is what a lot of other states have to offer in terms of a college vote.  Obama must become much more viable with voters 45 years and over to have any chance, as they make up 60%+ of the entire voting public almost everywhere.   This promises to be a great contest for all of us, and the Democratic party is looking at a bunch of "fat" years, IMHO.  And I am stating that not because Hillary is ahead, but that would also be the case if Obama can find a way to win the nomination, obviously having done so convincing enough voters to give him a second look and consider him presidential material.  



Display:


Interesting... (none / 0)

Look at that Chevron ad above her head on MyDD.

By the way, a Chevron ad on MyDD? Wouldn't that be like a Green Peace ad on faux news?


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:17:20 AM EST

Re: Interesting... (none / 0)

Interesting observation.

This diary is otherwise a fair analysis of the situation, which says, overall, gender and race are not going away as campaign issues, even if they are immersed into the background.
 


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 08:12:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (demographics analysis) (none / 0)

Latinos are only going to become more and more Democratic as it emerges that the Republican solution to the economy is to scapegoat them for everything.  Hillary's strength with these voters is truly impressive.

I'm still not sure I'm prepared to accept hwc's theory that the Democratic Party is going to tell blacks to go stuff it, because their states aren't winnable and Latinos are more biddable (they don't do uppity stuff like running their own candidates), but as always, hwc has the most provocative thoughts of the Clinton supporters.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:21:25 AM EST

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (demographics analysis) (none / 0)

LOL I don't think the Democratic Party will be writing off black voters any time soon.  Besides that, there actually was a Hispanic in the race.  And his departure before Nevada really helped Hillary.


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:28:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Cloakroom shenanigans? (none / 0)

I can't help but think that was intentional.  Richardson knew his presence in the race would hurt Hillary, throw Nevada to Obama, and, combined with an Obama win in SC the next week, suddenly make Obama the frontrunner again headed into Feb5.  

I wonder what went on behind closed doors.


99% perspiration
by DaveOinSF on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 04:05:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (demographics analysis) (none / 0)

Gotta believe that Richardson is a Clinton supporter and that he will eventually get on the stump for her.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 08:14:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (demographics analysis) (none / 0)

Hispanics/Latinos are the fastest-growing segment in our country.  They are a pivotal constituency.  The GOP is relegating itself to minority status (the domestic enemy) for a decade by treating them the way they have in the past and continue to do so.  If Hillary wins the nomination, we will absolutely see huge, record turnout for Democrats in the general election from women voters, Hispanics, Asian-Americans.  If Obama gets on board with the overall effort, we can probably bring a record youth turnout into the mix as well as ever reliably strong African-Americans.  I don't see how we can lose against the GOP with that combination, be the candidate McCain, Huckabee, Romney, or whoever.  


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:30:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (demographics analysis) (none / 0)

meant to say:

The GOP is relegating itself to minority status (by making Hispanics and/or their extended families the domestic enemy) for a decade by treating...


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:31:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, with Clintons' Nevada leadership... (none / 0)

We can win the popular vote... while losing the election again.


by Tatarize on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 03:39:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, with Clintons' Nevada leadership... (none / 0)

Look, after New Hamsphire many Obama posters went ballistic about DIEBOLD VOTER FRAUD and Diebold irregularities (implying that the results were because of cheating) and they also invoked the so-called Dinkins/Bradley effect to explain/excuse the loss.  In regards to Nevada the implications are now that Hispanics as a group don't like blacks, therefore they voted against Obama (not on this blog, thankfully, but Dkos has been full of that crap from sour-grapish Obama fans.)    We are ALREADY being fed reasons why Obama is not winning, with the most prominent one brought forth latent racism amongst Whites and Hispanics.   If that were true (I personally reject those notions as cheap excuse making and cover-up for candidate deficits that are not related to skin color) then how are Obama supporters figuring to win a General election?    


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 04:08:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (demographics analysis) (none / 0)

I never said that the Democratic Party is going to tell African American voters to "go stuff it". In fact, I specifically said that Clinton will have a place at the table for African American interests even though they have called her a racist. Her lifelong commitment to African American advancement isn't going to change because they've attacked her in the most despicable manner.

What I have said is that the Democratic Party is broadening its horizons, to Latino/a voters and towards the West. Just as the demographic pool of the entire country is moving in the same directions. As the Democratic Party pie gets larger, the impact of any one group within the party is diluted. That's a good thing, unless you want a party that is shrinking like the Republican Party.

These are extremely positive developments for the party. IMO, the black political base (as represented by Jesse Jackson, Rep. Clyburn, etc.) has had too much of a grip on the Democratic Party. Loosening that grip creates new opportunities for the Democratic Party to address the country's issues from a broader perspective.

An example: We've now had at least three African American debates. We've had NO debates, in fact, not even a single question in a debate, on women's issues. Yet, women are 54% of the electorate, compared to African Americans being perhaps 15% of the electorate. What's wrong with this picture?


by hwc on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 03:40:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (demographics analysis) (none / 0)

Well, he is totally wrong there.  Indeed, it's a laughable suggestion because african american politicians are in a time of ascension.  The congressional black caucus has never been stronger, and they will get alot of their agenda passed because of it, which is a very good thing.  However, that won't be enough to get Obama the nomination.


formerly bookgirl
by masslib1 on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 10:32:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (none / 0)

Per usual,  excellent analysis. I noted the Clinton strength among Hispanics here. There is also validation in those quotes of what Taylor Marsh was reporting.  Hispanic voters were talking about the coercive tactics of the Culinary Union and voted in large numbers as a way of showing they refused to be cowed by the unions.  


by Mike Pridmore on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:26:26 AM EST

great analysis but.... (none / 0)

1.  It would be suicidal for Democrats to throw blacks under the bus.  It would cost Maryland, any chance at winning Virginia, and could lose Michigan as well.  The party just can't toss its most loyal constituency to the wind.

2.  George, what did you think of the debate?
3.  Can Hillary attack McCain enough so his negatives go down?  That's her only chance.


by mikelow1885 on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:32:18 AM EST

Re: great analysis but.... (2.00 / 1)

I believe, with the economy as the inevitable focus of this election, Hillary has a very good chance against McCain.

She's obviously super-sharp on policy matters and voters will be impressed by her air of competence.  The clearest difference, though, will be on the question of who can offer real solutions to the problems Americans are experiencing.  Because Hillary, like her husband, is not afraid to base her campaign on ideological differences between the parties, she will be able to point out that Republicans have no solutions because they fundamentally don't believe in using government to help people.  Other than the top 1%, of course.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:37:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: great analysis but.... (none / 0)

I enjoyed the debate immensely, Mike.  It was fascinating to watch.  

Let me address your points one by one:

1. I don't see any indication that AA voters are being thrown under the bus in any way. I don't know where that notion is coming from.  I have seen race issues toned down from both campaigns, and in a couple of weeks (obviously after SC) nobody will be talking about it anymore, IMHO.  I think it was expected by most that Obama would get a large share of the AA vote and also that Hillary would get a large share of the women vote, but I don't think that in either group that means that the other is despised or hated.  I would imagine that Obama is popular with women voters, who just happen to be casting their vote with Clinton, just as I am convinced that Hillary is not at all despised in the AA community, enjoys strong popularity, just is currently not supported because Obama is the candidate.  Once the nomination is decided, I am quite certain and convinced that the other will pick up a big part of that vote that now appears to be missing.  Obviously, that means that should Hillary win the nomination I expect AAs to be with her enthusiastically and in huge numbers.  

2. I enjoyed this debate quite a bit.  Hillary did very well, so did Edwards (who I thought did the best of the 3) and Obama also did well.  I think Obama came out 3rd (again, though, all 3 did well overall) because he got most of the brunt of the criticism his way tonight (from both sides) and did not, in my opinion, do enough to deflect or diffuse it 100% effectively.  

3. I disagree.  McCain has a lot of vulnerabilities of his own, but he also has history against him (strongly,) the economy, a host of other factors us Democrats have an institutional advantage in, and, last, but not least, a very, very strong candidate to contend with (should Hillary win the nomination.)    


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:48:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: great analysis but.... (none / 0)

I thought Kingstongirl had the prizewinning analysis in the debate thread.

When the narrative was all about Bill Clinton attacking Obama for his lack of experience, some AA voters had a real problem with that.  Even though it obviously wasn't intended in any kind of racial way, it came across as the respected elder statesman telling the black candidate he wasn't ready, and it just rubbed some folks the wrong way.

In tonight's debate, even though Hillary took plenty of shots at Obama, the narrative was much different and the reaction was as well.  In this case it's Obama throwing some punches and Hillary responding in kind; this may turn off some people who simply don't like disagreement, but there's no power disparity.  It's one thing to see Obama trading shots as an equal partner, it's something different to see him get dismissed altogether.  So I think to the extent there was tension going into tonight between the Dem establishment and AA voters, things may have actually gotten better, not worse.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:57:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: great analysis but.... (none / 0)

It was explicitly stated by black leaders in SC this week that questioning Obama's experience is "racist".

That is an example of an unhealthy stranglehold on the Democratic Party by a special interest group.

The thing that pisses me off is that Obama could have been SUCH A STRONG CANDIDATE if he had simply put his nose to the grindstone in the US Senate for eight years and built himself a real record to run on and enough political chops to remove any doubt about his qualifications. Instead, he's a gifted guy who has one hand tied behind his back because of his undeniable lack of experience. Electing the first woman President will require a perfect storm of a larger than life candidate. Likewise, electing the first African American President will require a candidate without gaping holes in his or her resume. You can't win as the first Af Am candidate AND the first candidate just two years removed from a statehouse gig.


by hwc on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 03:52:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: great analysis but.... (none / 0)

Very good analysis.  Spot on.


formerly bookgirl
by masslib1 on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 10:35:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: great analysis but.... (none / 0)

As I keep reminding people, women will make up somewhere between 54% and 60% of the electorate in November 2008.

In the rush to define this election by race, the media and the blogosphere keeps overlooking the transformative impact of the electing the first female President in 230 years on voter turnout.

Because women vote so overwhelmingly Democratic, ever additional female voter is tilts the game further and further from Republican's grasp. The entire 2006 midterm gains were the direct result of increased female turnout.


by hwc on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 03:44:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: great analysis but.... (none / 0)

I have been saying for months that Clinton would be the BEST candidate for down ticket races.  I believe I am right on that.  More women vote, more democrats win.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:09:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That isn't correct (none / 0)

the Republicans absolutely hate Clinton, and if you look at the polls on this web page you would see that Obama does better with Independants.  I don't think that statement you made is supported by the facts.

Obama also does something Hillary can never do, and that is hold his base intact, while bringing in new voters.  He can grow the Democratic Party.


Enough already...
by pjv on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 03:00:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That isn't correct (none / 0)

Obama is not beloved or very well liked with the Democratic base.  DEMOCRATS (you know, WE) are not giving him wholesale support.  Sure, he has some Independents, but not the Democratic base.  You can't win the Democratic nomination on the backs of Independents.  It can't be done. There are many contests that don't even let Independents vote in the party primaries.  Were Obama to somehow win the nomination, his problem with the Democratic base would need some serious mending, as there is a huge excitement gap between Hillary and Obama.  The effect could easily be that many Democrats simply won't get that engaged with Obama (compared to Clinton) and many would have to hold their noses to vote for him.   Now, Independents is a different story.  He has a larger share of them.  But, who is to say they don't jump off upon finding out things about Obama they may not like?   They don't have party loyalty to keep them where they are, they are free to go whereever.  

Hillary has brought a record amount of women to the process, and it looks as if she can get Hispanics to show up for us Democrats in record numbers.  On the other hand Obama has AAs, which are already voting for us to the tune of 94%, 95%, and a youth vote that has not been quite that numerous for Obama after Iowa. He certainly can bring out good support of his own, but  I think Mollie is correct that as of now Hillary is bringing a much bigger fresh, brandnew voter contingent to the Democratic party than Obama.  


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 03:52:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no, try logic this time (none / 0)

independents may vote for Barack but they will not necessarily vote for other democrats.  New women democrats on the other hand will vote for democrats down ticket.  Women tend to vote democratic.
Statistics back up what I say.  

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:17:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: great analysis but.... (none / 0)

Your wrong.  The percentage of women voters you are speaking of is in the Democratic primaries.  Come general election time, the percentage of women voters is typically 52 to 53 percent (and oh a number of them are Republican and Independents).


by True Independent on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 02:56:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: great analysis but.... (none / 0)

Uh, it does not take a record scientist to surmise that Hillary would bring more (perhaps much more) than that typical 52% or 53 percent out to vote for her in a general election.


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 03:55:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good lord, you all are so clueless (none / 0)

it is a fact that women vote in higher percentages for democrats.  It is also a fact that Clinton is bringing many thousands of new female voters to the  democratic party.
The voters Obama is bringing from the ranks of independents are NOT reliable votes for the democrat or democrats in down ticket races.  If they were they would BE democrats.

ps... Clintons share of the independent vote is growing.  That proves that it is not Obama bringing these people to the party, but frustration with the republicans.  Most of those who are going to vote for the democrat will vote for any democrat.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:Call her whatever, but (none / 0)

You have to call her partisan.  She is not afraid to say Repubs suck and let me tell you why.  I think in the debate when she said that Universal healthcare should be a part of the Democratic Party platform and anything else just won't do she meant it.


by Kingstongirl on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:45:06 AM EST

Re:Call her whatever, but (none / 0)

I was watching the people graph or whatever the heck they call it.  When ever anyone attacked the republicans or George bush it went up.  Clinton did it more often than the other two.  Where Edwards attacks, it is often the system rather than the other party.
Democrats who are voting in primaries are partisans.  All three candidates should remember that.  It may be too late for Edwards to shift his rhetoric, but not Obama.

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:00:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:Call her whatever, but (none / 0)

You don't think it would be too late for Obama to shift rhetoric to making the rest of his campaign about changing PARTIES in November and declaring the OTHER party the main reason we are in the situation we are in as a country, a society, a people?  Obama's campaign is based on post-partisanship, and to appeal to Independents and cross-over Republicans to make up for deficits with the Demcratic electorate.  That was also part of his appeal to some (not enough to win the nomination, IMO, but to make a dent,) so it is unlikely to change.


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it probably is too late for him (none / 0)

to change that rhetoric.  However if he were really bold he would do it and dare the media which has up to this time covered for him, to take him on.  I really am hoping he does it just to see what happens.  I guess there is a little cannibal in me.  = )


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 12:12:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:Call her whatever, but (none / 0)

I think he could do it.  Indeed, you wouldn't see BTD and myself repeatedly begging him to if we thought it was impossible.

One of the segments of the infamous "Reagan interview" that hasn't gotten much play (shame on you, Obama diarists) was a spot where Obama talked about the Republican obsession with tax cuts and how that ideology simply hadn't worked out for the country.  That's exactly what we're talking about when we want him to critique the other side and point out why their policies are wrong.  And I think he can do it without stigmatizing the Republican voters he wants to attract.

I seriously hope he learns this lesson regardless of how the rest of the primary season goes.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 01:15:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:Call her whatever, but (none / 0)

I would not say it is impossible, but highly unlikely.

What you seem to imply here is that Obama could become a true Democratic fighter.  But, that would go against the core of his campaign, which generally claims that both parties are exactly equally to blame for the problem.  So, for every "constant Republican tax cuts are bad" we get the counter argument, advanced by Obama that "on the other hand, Democrats decided obsessively to go after God in the market square."   I just don't see Obama changing the "pox on both houses" theme at this stage.  I am trying to figure out how he could do something like you are asking smoothly, without inflicting major damage to his prospects with non-Democrats and part of his current cadre of supporters, but can't come up with a decent idea how.  

Part of the reason there is such a commotion in the liberal blogosphere whenever Obama says anything negative about the GOP is because it happens so rarely, especially when it is said in its own right, without a simultaneous invalidation of Democrats as just as bad.  


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 01:37:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

more on J.E (none / 0)

IM so sick and tired of Edwards yapping about his electablity vs Mccain.  He has the ---- to sit up there and yap on for 5 minutes strait about how he can compete in the South, yet then claims his electability is not based on race!! WTF?!?? of course its a race issue.  The whole thing is a "fairytale"!  He directly contradicts himself by saying that throughout Chicago, L.A, and New York the dems are ok, but he is the only one that can compete in the south.  Ok, guy if this is true why is a White woman and a Black man beating you in your  own backyard!?!! Deception is such a vice.... Guys these elections have already been decided.  Ive figure it out, hes sticking around to win Georgia and Mississippi on super Tuesday.


by nzubechukwu on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 01:03:44 AM EST

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (none / 0)

The strong surge in young voter turnout that was seen in Iowa seems to be abating.  The longer this drags out, the more that trend is going to continue.  Young voters may be able to demonstrate momentary episodes of enthusiasm, but sticking with something for the long haul as things become tedious is not a strength.


99% perspiration
by DaveOinSF on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 01:23:34 AM EST

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (2.00 / 1)

Unlike Iowa, most states are not a bus ride from Illinois.


by hwc on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 03:46:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The bus ride you are referring to.... (none / 0)

is from Minnesota, not Illinois.  If people crossed state lines, thats where many people came from to help his campaign.

Of course this is unlike New Hampshire, which is a bus ride away from New York?  What are you saying?


Enough already...
by pjv on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 03:05:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is any of this really surprising? (none / 0)

Black voter were always going support Obama for tribal reasons. And there was always a fair chance Obama's campaign would try to use race as a wedge issue.

Females have long been predicted as supporting Clinton in overwhelming numbers. Seems like Penn was right after all.

Youth voters always flock to the new face it's been happening since Gene McCarthy and before. But they are a diminishing asset.

Hispanics are overwhelmingly in the Democratic camp and equally overwhelmingly in Clinton's camp. This has been showing up in polls for months. It's also a fact that there is some animus between the black and hispanic community.

Folks over forty who probably have the clearest recollection of the Clinton AND are able to compare it with earlier administrations are enormous fans of Bill and Hillary Clinton.

What's really important in all this is that Clinton and her strategists have appreciated this from the start. The problem for the rest of us is we either never understood it in the first place or it's very hard to hold on to broad strategic appreciations amongst the mass of media and blog chaff. That's the stuff they used to throw out of aeroplanes in WW 2 to confuse radar. Clinton has fashioned her coalition around these facts which stand out a mile from the numbers in NH, MI and NV. It's why victory is almost certainly going to be hers.  


by ottovbvs on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 09:29:42 AM EST

georgep, I admit that I am less worried (none / 0)

about Hillary's ability to win the general than I used to be, and your diaries are part of the reason.

I still get scared when I think about how many regular Democratic voters I've called or canvassed who, unprompted by me, have volunteered that they are for "anyone but Hillary."

I hope that these people will all come around to vote for her in the general. I know that a certain subset will not, and I just hope it's not a large group. We can't afford to lose many Democrats from our coalition, especially against McCain.

I am also very concerned by what the elevation of the Mark Penn/Terry McAuliffe/Al From types would do to the Democratic Party, but that's an argument for another day.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 09:41:19 AM EST

Sometimes the lord's work is done by those with (none / 0)

dirty hands. Politics aint bean bag. There are few more shady characters around than Trippi. I don't blame him or Penn or Axelrod and shady character. That's what your dealing with in politics.


by ottovbvs on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 09:47:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: georgep, I admit that I am less worried (none / 0)

I think Iowa was somewhat unique in that aspect. We have seen this ABH phenomenon much less in the subsequent contests. Of course, Clinton has a major advantage with Democrats over Obama (and also Edwards,) which is half the battle won.  The Democratic base would be plenty energized for her, and in an expanded way with many new voters. The alternative would be an Obama winning the nomination with registered Democrats not making him our first choice, but Independents putting him over the top, which is less desireable IMHO, as there would be less excitement overall from our party (aside from a few pockets like AA voters and college attendants.)  

With Democratic registration growing rapidly in reaction to disenchantment for Republicans, we are in a good position.  The challenge for Clinton would be to bring enough Independents over to our side, which I think she will do well.  Besides, the bad state of the economy will be laid squarely on the GOP's shoulders, which McCain can't have a fitting answer to.  


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 10:00:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (none / 0)

Good analysis. While Obama will likely win South Carolina these numbers have to be a concern for him. He can't have Hillary with those kind of advantages among Women, Latinos, and older voters. If he doesn't change those trends these are the only states he will go down as winning by feb 6: Iowa, South Carolina, Illinios, Georgia, and Alabama. Hillary would take 19 of the 22 states on Super Tuesday.


by Christopher Lib on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 11:40:35 AM EST

Obama and Edwards supporters (2.00 / 1)

I thought the most interesting observation was Obama caucus goers being shocked that Edwards supporters didn't immediately move over. And I see similar effects all over the various thread around the blogosphere. Obama supporters don't see, perhaps can't see the source of some of our reservations

Obama with his language continually disparages the efforts of older progressives. It is kind of subtle but when you combine a message of 'change' throw in the adjective 'generational' and throw in even backhand praise of Reagan as a change agent who put a country 'waiting' to be put on a new 'path' you might as well come right out and say "screw the DFHs". Which oddly enough disturbs some of the DFHs that helped introduced the real foundational changes we see today.

The actual record of Social change in the decade from 1964 to 1974 was epic. Whole areas of policy that had been thought to be fringe: environmental protection, equal pay for women, equal rights for gays, cementing into place the legal protections for minorities (largely initiated in the decade before but passed early in this period) all of them came into being during that decade. None of it came easy, but at the end of the day America had moved a huge way towards the progressive position. Well then we had Iran and the Oil Crisis, and Reagan was able to exploit that opening. Whereupon he unleashed Reaganism on us, which when fleshed out meant a total rollback of all social and economic progress. Reaganism promised change all right, it promised changes that would roll back not merely the 60's but the 30's as well.

Obama's youth base may not remember who James Watt was, but anyone who was an active environmentalist does. Watt was a  firm believer in the End Times, thought they were fast approaching, and that the right response was just to extract as much oil and coal in as many places as we could in the time we had available. Which made him the obvious Reagan choice for Interior Secretary. You had similar attitudes throughout the Administration, the only reason it didn't get as excessive as Bushism is become Reagan didn't have the congressional base to make the changes he wanted.

Parts of the VRWC pre-date Reagan's election, but not by much. Reagan's Morning in America was the same as the versions we see today which is Unitary Executive and Permanent Majority and
Gilded Age policies. Of all of the actual change agents in the last century two tower over the others: FDR and Reagan. When Reagan came in the institutional response of significant parts of the Democratic Establishment was to tack right, to triangulate and deliver DLC politics, in effect to repudiate FDR. The result was an immediate and constant erosion in Democratic control of Congress leading to an ultimate loss. Why did it happen? Because the DLC and allies allowed one election loss, one that clearly turned on externalities (Oil and Iran hostage crisis), to hand the power to define the Center over to the Republican Party in the spirit of the Big Table.

Well some of us are not willing to start from a position of compromise. We want the Center back in the position it was when the last Mr. 27% flew away in his helicopter. The 23 years since 1975 have really given working people nothing, and we shouldn't have to wait another 23 years just to get back to status quo ante, some of us won't be here for that.

Obama supporters often seem to be unaware of the history of progressivism in this country, being progressive is not about being hip or new, progressivism is about being aware that the powers of Reaction are always out there. If they can they will reverse every bit of Progress past generations fought for, and you can't just assume that past victories on civil rights and the environment are guaranteed going forward, look at the current push to reverse Roe v Wade. For that matter Brown v Board of Edcuation is under severe stress.

So I hope Edwards stays in the race as long as he can. It doesn't bother me that in certain aspects he is a recent convert, at least he is speaking our language. And contrary to certain modern thinking the theme song of liberal progressivism wasn't Kumbaya it sound a lot more like We Shall Overcome. Until Obama learns to speak to DFHs in ways that overcome a delivered message of passive cooperation and compromise a certain part of us will be standing on the sidelines hoping Edward's catches lightning in a bottle.


PollKatz: Bush Approval in 15 polls
by Bruce Webb on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 01:32:06 PM EST

Re: Obama and Edwards supporters (none / 0)

Good points.  Obama appears to believe that the 60s and 70s were fraught with liberal excesses which then needed a Republican "orderly" counter reaction, which the country hungered for.  Part of the rejection he is facing from Democrats, especially older Democrats born in the early to late 50s, is the danger to liberal core values that is contained in that opinion.


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 01:44:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're head is screwed on backwards (none / 0)

Do you remember Terry McAuliffe?  He is Hillary's guy.  Do you remember triangulation?  Do you remember Sista Soulja?  Do you remember the DLC and her close friend Joe Lieberman?  Did you know that Hillary has been a part of the DLC leadership along with Lieberman?

You don't have to go back to the 60's or 70's to find people upset with "liberal excesses".  They are running Hillary's campaign.  Hillary doesn't have a leg to stand on when it comes to that issue.


Enough already...
by pjv on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 02:49:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're head is screwed on backwards (none / 0)

What the...

Reasoning like this is unfortunate.  It adds little and makes decent discourse impossible.  Many of us beleive that it is Obama who is on his way to being a triangulator, not so much Hillary.  There IS a difference between Hillary and Bill Clinton,  are you aware of that AT ALL?  What ABOUT Sister Souljah?  I remember she made some asinine statements that were absolutely beyond the pale.

What we are discussing here is Obama's bashing of Democrats way, way too often, and the Reno comments fit right in with that.  It is as if he shuns the hippie generation, the generation that fought for many of the issues in the 60s and 70s that are important to liberals now.  

BTW, do you remember Robert Gibbs, creator of the worst, slimiest smear ad every concocted in Democratic nomination history against an excellent Democratic candidate?  He is Obama's SPOKESMAN, for cripes sakes.


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 03:40:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

are you aware that (none / 0)

both Edwards and Obama were members of the DLC?
What matters is who is doing what now.  Obama is sucking up to republicans.  There is a reason rank and file democrats are voting for Clinton rather than him and thank God the wisdom of the voters will  probably prevail this time.  Obama will be sent back to the senate to cook a little longer and Clinton, who is more progressive, will be the nominee.

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:40:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and Edwards supporters (none / 0)

Obama's problem is that he can't really latch onto the mainstream Democratic legacy because Hillary is quite obviously the heir to that legacy, fairly or unfairly.

He's really got no choice but to reject the Democratic narrative and leave it by the wayside.  That's why he keeps promising "something different."


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 02:48:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and Edwards supporters (none / 0)

That something different is someone who isn't a member of the DLC.  That someone is a person who thinks the Iraq war vote was a mistake, something Hillary has yet to own up to.


Enough already...
by pjv on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 02:52:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and Edwards supporters (none / 0)

Right.  But to advance his narrative, he has to show not just that Hillary got things wrong, but that the mainstream Democratic Party has gotten things wrong for quite a while.

That's a familiar narrative to many of us in the blogosphere, but it's hard to sell with veteran Democrats, who tend to believe that the party has been a force for good over the years even though it's far from perfect.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 03:25:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

veteran Democrats know (none / 0)

that life is better when democrats are in charge. That's the bottom line.  


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:44:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (demographics analysis) (none / 0)

Why isn't Iowa in there.  If you are going to include New Hampshire, you ought to include Iowa as well.


Enough already...
by pjv on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 01:58:28 PM EST

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (demographics analysis) (none / 0)

I did not include where movement went in MI, as that was a screwy contest.  Iowa's caucus is in many ways very unique and is not likely to be duplicated in other states.  Iowa was important in the sense that it sometimes can get the ball rolling to further wins following it (as some contend happened to Kerry) but that obviously did not happen here.  I think, given that NH was a primary (which most contests are going to be from here on out) and that NV has many of the demographics that are going to be featured in states moving forward, they give us a good way to see where the various constituencies are going right now.


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 03:14:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Analysis based on mistaken assumptions (none / 0)

The problem I have with georgep's analysis is that it is based entirely on exit poll analysis.  The problem with the focus on the exit polls is that they were proven wrong by the results.  The most notable example being rural votes.  According to the exit polls in Nevada, Clinton won slightly the rural vote, but when the results came in, the opposite was true:  Obama won the rural areas.  Of the 17 counties in Nevada, Obama won in 11 of them.  Indeed, outside of Vegas, Clinton's base of support with thin and shallow.  It is for this reason that in terms of national delegates Obama won more in Nevada than Clinton.  The demographics of Clinton's support base are carbon copies of those Gore and Kerry had in the general election --- primarily women and concentrated in urban areas.  If Clinton's base of support remains like this then she will lose the general election (if she is nominated) in much the same manner as Gore and Kerry did.


by True Independent on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 02:52:36 PM EST

Re: Analysis based on mistaken assumptions (none / 0)

We have many polls to prove the same thing, but exit polls are more direct and more recent as a meter.  It is not at all true to state that exit polls were wrong.  In NH the CNN exit poll was right on the money, and even in NV they were correct (obviously they also come with a MoE)

If you have evidence to the contrary, I would be interested in seeing it. Is the women vote not going to Clinton overwhelmingly?  The Hispanic vote did not find its way to Clinton?  The age distribution is somehow incorrect?  

I think you make it way too easy on yourself to point to one item in an exit poll (which was within the margin of error correct) and dismiss the findings wholesale.   As an Obama supporter you may want to point out what his demographic base support is, and how those constituencies suffice to win in the general election.  


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 03:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Analysis based on mistaken assumptions (none / 0)

Georgerep you fail to consider one thing --- cross-tabulation.  When you say the women vote is going for Clinton and the Hispanic vote is going for Clinton you fail to grasp that perhaps that the one (women) comprise a larger subset of the second (the Hispanic vote).  That is to say, the Hispanic vote is going to Clinton because Hispanic women are showing up in larger numbers than Hispanic men.  This could be significant come November if Clinton is nominated because it could suggest that her support amongst Hispanics in general will drop as a share of the vote than that she is gaining in the primaries.  By that I mean to say perhaps more Hispanic men will show up in the general in greater numbers thereby diluting Clinton's share of the Hispanic vote that she is currently enjoying in the primaries.  Moreover, I DID show where your analysis was woefully mistaken -- rural voters.  And you say that the exit poll was within the margin of error on that one!  Come on georgerep outside of Vegas she lost most of Nevada and from my review of the county-by-county returns the results were not very close (Obama winning by five to ten points in those counties).  Please at least admit that Clinton is following the failed demographic base that Gore and Kerry followed in the general election.  


by True Independent on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 04:07:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Analysis based on mistaken assumptions (none / 0)

jeeps, if Obama actually WON Nevda, why did he rush out of town before the votes were even counted, never making a customary speech to his own supporters, there was nothing but silence.  Are Obama supporter deluding themselves into believing that he is winning a large portion of the constituents needed to win the nomination?  Can you point them out, please?  They seem to have abandoned him in droves.  Where, for example, was the youth vote?  

If you contend that Hillary's support is thin (against reason, but whatever) then Obama's has to be considered non-existent.  He is extremely weak amongst the "bread-and-butter" of Democratic constituencies, those making $50,000 or less (meaning, no appeal to the working-class Democrat,) he loses the women vote very strongly, and he loses very badly with Hispanics, the most important demographic we are able to incorporate into the Democratic party with Hillary.   (your contention about female/male votes in the Hispanic subset is false, as many, many polls have shown us in the past that no gender difference exists in the Hillary preference in the Hispanic subset.)  

I guess I get it:  Obama is loved and revered by all, Hillary has only the thin, failed constituencies that Gore and Kerry had.  To me that is hilariously ignorant of many of the problems Obama shows with way too many Democratic constituency groups, a failure to connect with the base that he needs to address in dramatic fashion, or else he has no chance to win the nomination.  Many of us are waiting with baited breath whether Obama finally makes such a committment to us DEMOCRATS rather than giving us short shrift and feed us talk about Hope and "getting along."


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 04:19:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what failed demographic base in 2000? (none / 0)

Gore won the popular vote and had the votes been counted in florida he won the electoral vote by a large margin.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 07:58:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (none / 0)

Very simply with Hilary on the top of the ticket we will probally lose as many as 20% of the seats we picked up in the 2006 elections. Why do you think alot of the red state senators are endorcing obama. Yes she may win with the Democratic base but if you look at every state so far and look at where obama pulled his votes from and where he won. IN northern Nevada they voted from him because he was not hilary.


by orin76 on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 04:12:39 PM EST

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (none / 0)

Well, then blame Obama's failure to connect with the Democratic base, you know US, for his problems.  He could have campaigned differently, but chose the track he chose, thereby alienating and turning away a majority of the Democratic base.  It is a fact.

Maybe it is not in his nature (which I have contended for many months,) but that is the problem.  Democrats don't want to be told by INDEPENDENTS who they want their nominee be.  They don't want someone who starts off towards the middle in the NOMINATION process already on vital issues like health care, and is bound to move even further towards the center come GE time.  

 I think you will be sorely surprised (and devastated) when Hillary brings a record turnout of women voters, Hispanics and other groups to the table and wins the GE.  That 20% figure loss in the House seems to be a figment of your imagination with no proof of any kind, say polls or stats, to support that assertion.    As such it appears to be just an utterance from a sore Obama supporter who is seeing the writing on the wall.   Or do you HAVE anything tangible to support your statement?


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 04:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (none / 0)

What area can Hilary turn blue that neither Kerry or Gore did? I have seen nothing so far in her primary result that would show she is going to fair any better than Kerry or Gore did in the past two elections.


by orin76 on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 04:28:17 PM EST

Re: How Clinton won Nevada (none / 0)

That is highly flawed reasoning.  She gets record turnout, which should tell you something.  She bests the highest-vote-getting Republican in any state so far. I think she would win Ohio and Florida, which is game and match right there.  But, she will probably also turn other states blue (i.e. Arkansas, West Virginia, etc.)


by georgep on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 06:57:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gore won (none / 0)

if she does as well as Gore and makes sure the votes are counted she will be fine.
But to answer your question she will win NH and Arkansas. She will win Florida. She will win all the normal blue states.  Anything else I can tell you?

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 08:02:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Clinton won Nevada ( (none / 0)

we are likely to lose a good number of the seats that are in red districts. Districts such as the 10th district in Pennsylvania, the second district in Kansas and a number of the districts we picked up in indiana for example


by orin76 on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 04:32:28 PM EST

wrong (none / 0)

Clinton will bring enough women to the polls to help hang on to those seats.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 08:07:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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